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Message |
Pamela
Member
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# Posted: 17 Nov 2006 16:00
Hello,
I was wondering if anybody could give me information on Illy coffee, or suggest where I might find information on it. Is it considered ethical? Yes? No? Why?
Thanks in advance,
Pamela
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Charlie M
Member
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# Posted: 23 Nov 2006 03:06
I too wonder about Illy who features promininently in the film if they are in fact paying the world recognised Fair Trade Certified price, I've contacted Illy a couple of weeks ago to inquire as to what their minimum price is that they pay and refer to on their website and how it relates to the Fair Trade Certified price of $1.41 minimum for Organic. No reply from them yet. The Economist recently quotes the head of Illy as being against Fair Trade Certified coffee as ALL coffees have been paid that minimum price. Maybe someone from Illy or the filmmakers can help us out here since the inclusion of Illy in the film implies that they are Fair Trade to most viewers?
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ejh
Member
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# Posted: 6 Dec 2006 23:14
i am also wondering about illy. in the movie the company is shown in a poor light though they claim to pay fair trade like prices, or premium. does anyone know where to look for accurate price information not produced by illy itself?
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Charlie M
Member
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# Posted: 16 Dec 2006 06:24
I should clarify that Illy didn't say that All their coffees were paid the minimum price but in the Economist stated that it resented that all Fair Trade Certified coffee farmers and co-ops were paid the Fair Trade Certified price as a minimum price level.
I would hope somebody (maybe Marc and Nick could ask them) could soon clarify what is in fact Illy's minimum price that they pay the farmers to allow consumers to make an informed decision about whether to buy into the somewhat bizarre theory that one should buy coffee roasted in Italy in North America under the impression its Fair Trade based on seeing the movie (Apparently Italians think they are great Lovers too, but I'm not sure who's buying that)
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marcfrancis
Member
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# Posted: 18 Dec 2006 02:20 - Edited by: marcfrancis
Charlie M
Hi Charlie
Firstly apologies for my slow repsonse on our Forum. Both myself and Nick are desperate to get more involved but so much has been going on lately that it's hard to find the time to write in here.
Anyway, let me seize this moment and talk about Illy -
Firstly, let me clarify why we included Illy in Black Gold:
1. They are known for roasting high quality coffee and producing an excellent coffee blend of which Ethiopian coffee forms a great part. By including Illy in the film it would help us make the point of how highly regarded the quality of Ethiopian coffee is to the speciality coffee world.
2. We wanted to introduce Italian coffee culture to Black Gold and Illy seemed like a great place to get a brief insight.
3. Illy ended up being one of the very few large companies that allowed us to come and film at their plant and therefore helping us tell the story of roasting and packaging in the coffee chain. It also helped us contrast the 'haves' and the 'have-nots' - the rich high-tech world of Europe and the near slave conditions of Ethiopia.
4. They do not buy their coffee on the New York 'C' market but buy directly from exporters at the country of origin.
----
You have however raised a vital question and not just to Illy but all coffee companies - and it's about the issue of transparency. We as consumers should know what is the price that is paid to the coffee farmer and how direct is that purchase.
It is a shame that Illy have not yet answered your email. My suggestion for now is that we wait until this Illy forum develops further - the more people that raise questions or can write what they might know already the better.
Once when enough people have joined in then I will email them directly drawing their attention to this debate and I will invite them to make a statement that will hopefully answer those concerns.
Thanks for keeping our Forum alive
all the best
Marc
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Charlie M
Member
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# Posted: 18 Dec 2006 03:53
HI Marc,
Thanks for the response, Seasons greetings!
I too am extremely busy and know the challenges inherent in finding time to spread the Fair Trade word, would that we could snap our fingers and create the ultimate clearinghouse for Fair Trade information for those passionate about social justice issues and others new to the concept of thinking about where the items they might use daily actually come from and those who created them.
Anyway I actually know a bit about the challenges of filmmaking and am hip to the fact that by letting you get footage of ILLY coffee roasting plant, packaging lines, warehouses, etc, it was valuable footage in the context of showing how industrial coffee is produced.
I feel it is extremely important for companies who do not submit themselves (especially those who speak out against the Fair Trade Certified Coffee criteria) to monitoring by the Fairtrade Labelling Organisation to explain precisely and exactly and why they will not submit to external monitoring.
Hey, I mean, I gave between 1 and 25 million dollars last year to Oxfam, that sounds like a 'fair' donation.
In Solidarity and Happy New Year!
Charlie
Hopefully we will find some clarification from ILLY soon about the 'minimum' price it pays.
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Jed Wild
Member
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# Posted: 8 Jan 2007 14:03
Hello List
There will be a lot of people in the UK also who would be interested to know exactly how much illy are actually paying their farmers
Illy has always claimed that its coffee sourcing is just as fair if not better than Fair Trade. For some time now the company been losing substantial market share to Fair Trade products and now seek to counter this
For 2007 they have employed a UK based PR agency to engage in a campaign to promote their 'ethical' status
If illy wishes to have any credibility on the ethical front it needs to answer the cost question before it even considers promoting its ethical crudentials
By not answering the price question they overwhelmingly giving the impression that they have something to hide
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davidoco
Member
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# Posted: 3 Jul 2007 00:24
its a natural follow on from seeing the film, isnt it. It invokes a sort of hunger for information which would enable us to make choices. First of all we become aware, then we feel the very human and compassionate need to act.
Until illy informs us, and others of their ilk in fact, i will be trawling through all the various fair trade product on offer to find a coffee of a similar quality.
illy take note, as a consumer i am dubious of your silence and am speaking through my wallet. I may be only one, but every one counts and this issue is growing. in an unber-competitive market such as yours, where perception is everything to the brand, you have an opportunity now to bring us onboard... inaction will be interpreted, as is already the case, as complicity. Youre move.
david
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davidoco
Member
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# Posted: 3 Jul 2007 00:36
Heres the blurb from illy.com
http://www.illy.com/usa/tools/footer/frequently_as ked_questions/coffee.htm#fair_trade
The illy position is that fairtrade, while guaranteeing fairer prices, does nothing to guarantee quality, they contest, and so illy take it upon themselves to deal outside of the NY C market, direct with the farmer and to pay what they call 'premium prices', with no middle men. Words on a website. Sounds legit. How true is this?
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David B
Member
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# Posted: 7 Jul 2007 00:14
If they do not take the time to even acknowledge your queries, I would not spend any money purchasing their coffee--whether it tastes good or not.
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harmsy
Member
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# Posted: 8 Jul 2007 18:23
Having just seen the movie, it would be great to hear from Illy as to whether or not their price is anywhere near that granted under the fair trade banner. It's all to easy to claim to be operating in an ethical way, but publishing a price (or becoming fair trade certified) is clearly a step in the right direction...
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olga
Member
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# Posted: 12 Jul 2007 10:10
Hi,
I drink Lavazza coffee.
Does anyone know how ethical this company is?
I don't think they are fairtrade as they'd have it on packaging.
Any info out there?!
Thanks,
Olga
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Anna Adriani
Member
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# Posted: 17 Jul 2007 13:27
Hi this is Anna Adriani, PR Director for illycaffè. Thank you very much for your interest in illy. Sorry to be late in answering, I've read your comments posted here and hope to provide some answers to the points raised.
First of all, illy coffee is not certified as Fair Trade, something that you'll be aware of from watching Black Gold.
We welcome and acknowledge Fair Trade but, I'd like to explain why illy can't be a Fair trade coffee.
illycaffè is committed to sourcing the best Arabica coffee on the market thus producing the finest quality espresso. While Fair Trade certifies the growers and their pricing policy, it does not take into account the quality of the coffee produced. Fair Trade certification would require us to buy our coffee from Fair Trade growers, meaning that we couldn't account for our product's quality.
illycaffè pursues a policy of sustainable coffee cultivation which benefits the green coffee grower, the environment and the consumer, providing them with the highest quality coffee.
For the past 15 years, illycaffè has bought 100% of its green coffee directly from farmers across the world. This has allowed us to build direct relationships with our farmers that are founded on mutual respect and trust. We know our suppliers personally and work with them to give training and knowledge to produce the highest quality coffee.
In return, illycaffè always guarantees the coffee producer a profit. Confidentiality means we can't disclose the specific price paid to the producers; which varies from country to country, and year by year. However, as an average price, illy pays 30% more than the coffee exchanged on the international stock market (New York).
illy calculates the price it pays for its coffee using a complex set of variables that have been developed over years of working directly with coffee growers. These variables take into account the price on the international stock market then country of origin, type of market, product quality, production costs and the margin for the coffee producers.
The 'margin' repays the farmer for taking the utmost care over the crops and always guarantees a profit, particularly when international green coffee pricing is low on the open market. The economic wellbeing of our growers is of vital importance for all of illycaffè's stakeholders, for without the farmers, we couldn't deliver the highest quality coffee in the world.
So in summary, illycaffè's unique approach to sustainability is threefold. We work directly with the best farmers in Brazil, Central America, India and Africa; we transfer know-how and techniques aimed at producing the best quality coffee while respecting the environment and we always pay a sustainable price to ensure out growers make a profit.
I hope these details have helped shed light on your concerns. If there are any further specific questions, please feel free to respond and I'll try to reply as soon as possible. If I'm slow in getting back to you, please bear with me.
Best wishes,
Anna
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juliobesq
Member
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# Posted: 25 Aug 2007 02:34
Dear Anna
Many thanks for your considered reply. However it skirts the question I and other board members are asking - what does Illy pay for it's coffee? The commodities market does not shroud it's prices in mystery and still turns a profit, and continues to operate.
For ten years I have been a loyal Illy customer but since Black Gold I now only buy Fair Trade, I might buy Illy if I knew where it's purchase price stood between the NYCE and Fair Trade values, but since I don't I'm voting with my wallet.
And with my mouth - http://1000tiptoes.wordpress.com - perhaps transparency would boost your standing, rather than cause suspicion?
Kind Regards
Julian
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Anna Adriani
Member
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# Posted: 3 Sep 2007 14:55
Dear Julien
Thank you for your feedback. Please be assured that we are not trying to skirt the issue at all – but it is very difficult to reduce what is an extremely complex business into an easily digestible sound-bite. At illy we are dealing with over 3,000 farmers and doing multiple international transactions involving coffee of different quality. As a consequence it would be impossible to express in one simple figure the answer that you are looking for. However as previously explained, adding 30% as an avarage to the market price of coffee traded on the NYSE will provide you with a reliable average guide. To give you one specific example– during last coffee campaign in Brazil - illy paid one of its farmers in Araponga, Brazil 340 Brazilian real (GBP £88) for a bag of coffee, compared to the 240 real (GBP £62) he received from other companies that also bought from him.
As my previous post explained, illy calculates the price it pays for its coffee using a complex set of variables that have been developed over years of working directly with coffee growers. The economic wellbeing of our growers is of vital importance as, without the farmers, we couldn't deliver the highest quality coffee in the world.
With best wishes, Anna
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Tim Taylor
Member
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# Posted: 11 Sep 2007 04:32
Being an independent direct trade coffee buyer and roaster, I have spent a good chunk of my time researching the Fair Trade certification. While the Fair Trade certification has accomplished wonderful results in terms of raising global awareness of the imbalanced system of trade affecting coffee farmers (and farmers of other products as well), it is not necessarily the best means to empowering coffee farmers to succeed.
Anna (above comments) raises some excellent points to consider. By working directly with coffee farmers, Illy is uniquely qualified to determine precisely what is fair for an individual farmer to receive. According to Anna, Illy has direct, long-term relationships with growers that are founded upon mutual respect and trust. Now, that sounds great! But it appears to be unverifiable. Transparency with both the farmer and consumer is, in my opinion, the only acceptable form of trade. And for those who have concerns with regard to social justice - demand transparency from your coffee company of choice. And if they are unwilling to be transparent - switch. Transparent coffee companies exist. And they usually have some of the better coffees.
More often than not, the quality behind a cup of coffee translates into quality of life for the grower. I want the best cup of coffee I can get my hands on. And, I'm willing to pay for it, too! Anna is right, Fair Trade does not provide a way to get the highest quality coffee available. We don't simply want to give a hand-out to coffee farmers. In the long run it doesn't benefit anyone. What helps is to empower them with the incentives and training that come through direct relationships – which Anna also mentioned. Paying them for quality encourages them to take pride in their product. When they're paid well, farmers can afford the expense of various quality procedures, such as picking only ripe cherries, a regular pruning schedule, and fertilizing organically. These basic procedures culminate in a cleaner, more flavorful cup of coffee. The farmer who is proud of his coffee will do these things and more... if he can afford to.
The Fair Trade system does not promote farmers taking pride in their work. It doesn't reward them for going the extra mile. There is no incentive for providing top notch coffee. Any farmer who does work extra hard will never be recognized for their efforts as long as they are selling their coffee through their Fair Trade cooperative. Coffee from all different farms within the coop is blended together. There is no distinction.
Additionally, farmers do not get all $1.31 of the Fair Trade standard per pound of coffee. A good percentage goes toward cooperative fees and the expense of being certified as a Fair Trade cooperative. Ultimately, a Fair Trade cooperative coffee farmer receives closer to $1.05-$1.14 per pound.
When all is said and done, I would recommend purchasing coffee that makes transparency a priority. Choose a coffee company that is willing to tell you what goes into their farmers' pockets (not what they pay an importer). There are advantages to Fair Trade, third-party certification, but, that doesn't mean it's the absolute best thing for the farmer.
I like Illy's method of relating directly to farmers and paying them for quality. I empathize with the complexity of calculating payments on individualized criteria. And I can understand the need for confidentiality in business contracts. However, the only way to know if any coffee company is really paying farmers well is if they are transparent with consumers.
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Tim Taylor
Member
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# Posted: 11 Sep 2007 04:33
http://www.coffeeambassadors.com
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Alexander
Member
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# Posted: 15 Oct 2007 13:21
Dear all
I think is important to say something about Fairtrade. I work as a trader for one of the main coffee importers in Europe. We have very good experiences working with Fairtrade producers. We work with them as partners. We supply top quality beans from Faitrade producers. We pay very good prices for these coffees. We pay sustainable prices. Do not forget that Fairtrade minimum prices are just referential ones. We most of the time pay prices well over the minimum Fairtrade price, especially when NYC prices are over this level. We do not patronise producers we work with them. Our Fairtrade coffees have being winning some coffee quality competitions. Our Fairtrade suppliers know that producing good quality coffees is the only way forward. Also, we believe that quality should not be seen in one dimension but more holistically. It is nothing wrong working with coops and with small scale producers, in fact working as coops, associations allow them to access the market place with volume. It is not about individuals but seeing the community as a whole. Those who say that Fairtrade producers do not work hard probably never have visited them and probably never have tasted their coffees.
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ioppoi29
Member
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# Posted: 12 Feb 2008 18:23
I think it is interesting that everyone speaks of the farmers, when most of the time it is the picker's (on non-fair trade farms) that are getting the brunt of fair wages in the coffee industry. After a recent trip to a Central American coffee farm, and plantation which is a direct Illy supplier, I found out that workers who pick coffee cherries in the field get paid $1 per 25 pound of hand picked cherries.
While it may be an issue of what Illy and non fair trade companies are paying farmers, when you begin to go down the totem pole, you begin to see the inhuman wages that are being paid to get a cup of coffee/ espresso to your table.
k
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saul
Member
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# Posted: 17 Feb 2008 13:53
Thanks to all above who have posted, I saw the movie finally yesterday, the lovefilm site releases dvd's in it's own time, so it was a long time coming.
I had a cup of Illy this morning, and did enjoy it I must say - the question was on my mind which is why I searched out the black gold forum. I did thing the response from Illy was well considered and honest. Of course we can't ask for full disclosure on market transactions. It seems an excellent start to say that the NYSE does not determine what the farmers are paid... but I don't fully understand what a 'margin' is in terms of how much insulation that is from starvation point in days or months time.
What I would really like to know is what Starbucks response has been, post the wake of the film in the light of international focus. Perhaps they have been framed as a villain, but we don't really know do we...?
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coffeegenius
Member
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# Posted: 12 Mar 2008 11:10
illy... ok..they have some farms, but surely they buy also coffee from all the big players, such as volcafe,neumann,dreyfuss...
they don't go and give money to the farmers..the farmers sells the cherries to the broker..the broker goes to the hulling factory..maybe he sells it to the co-op that owns this hulling machine..then it's sold to the compamy that is able to export it.. this company usually is a branch of a big multinational..such as ecom-olam-volcafe-neumann and dreyfuss.... and then...the buyer of illi.buys it from them. At least that's my opiniom based on what i saw.
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CriticalMass
Member
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# Posted: 11 Jun 2008 08:46
Hi coffeegenius,
This is not a defence of the Illy corporate PR line, but Anna says in her first post "...For the past 15 years, illycaffè has bought 100% of its green coffee directly from farmers...". Isn't that a clear enough statement that they don't source via the regular coffee distribution channel?
Anna Adriani,
I am glad to see at least one corporation being brave enough to face the critics.
All the same, Anna, you may be telling us the truth in everything you say, but is it the whole truth? I'm wondering why your farmer in Araponga sold some of his crop at such a discount to other buyers; why not sell all his crop to you? Was it that the rest of the crop was of a lower quality? (Hence the dramatically lower price.) You will do Illy a favour if you provided us with a clearer example, using the same units ($/lb) as used elsewhere in this forum, and provided us with the equivalent fair trade price.
And please don't hide behind that "complex business" and "complex set of variables" flannel. Be clear and straight with us and you'll win some friends.
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Twink
Member
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# Posted: 4 Jul 2008 02:04
Anna Adriani's Response: "While Fair Trade certifies the growers and their pricing policy, it does not take into account the quality of the coffee produced. Fair Trade certification would require us to buy our coffee from Fair Trade growers, meaning that we couldn't account for our product's quality."
Tim's Response: "But it appears to be unverifiable. Transparency with both the farmer and consumer is, in my opinion, the only acceptable form of trade. And for those who have concerns with regard to social justice - demand transparency from your coffee company of choice. And if they are unwilling to be transparent - switch."
My Response: Anna so I'm supposed to continue to purchase Illy coffee, sit down in the morning knowing that I'm drinking some of the best coffee (and best tasting too!) in the world because that IS of course the benchmark of your company's promise to the consumer, and realize there is some poor family, perhaps an entire family, not even making a living wage? Huh? Doesn't work for me.
And Tim, I think your encouragement for companies such as Illy to walk the talk and make themselves more transparent is very good. I have switched. Do I miss Illy, yep I sure do. It is wonderful coffee. I couldn't drink it anymore knowing what I know now. I just don't buy their pitch that they cannot produce the same coffee without being Fair Trade. Jeez it's 2008, do they think we're stupid? Maybe it's their profit margin they are concerned about more than anything. It's gotta start somewhere.
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gevalia
Member
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# Posted: 27 Aug 2008 15:09 - Edited by: gevalia
hi twink
{Anna Adriani's Response: "While Fair Trade certifies the growers and their pricing policy, it does not take into account the quality of the coffee produced. Fair Trade certification would require us to buy our coffee from Fair Trade growers, meaning that we couldn't account for our product's quality}
{I'm supposed to continue to purchase Illy coffee, sit down in the morning knowing that I'm drinking some of the best coffee (and best tasting too!) in the world because that IS of course the benchmark of your company's promise to the consumer}
my feeling is that coffee being very expensive i take into account the quality of the coffee produced.. i want to sit down in the morning knowing that I'm drinking some of the best coffee ..fairtrade or not
also Coffee is now the world's second most valuable legal commodity, behind oil and i want value ..you would not put rubbish oil in your car for some high moral standard
The coffee i drink is from prized Arabica beans from East Africa, Central and South America, its smooth and of course of a special blendcoffee and its not Illy coffee no i have drunk loads of coffees and the
Gevalia blendcoffee is the best..and i drink the best.i dont want transparent i want taste;and i want it now! my blog goes into more detail.
and some samples
http://www.gevaliablendcoffee.zoxic.com
just before i go: did you know that coffeehouses helped spawn the French and American revolutions?.... no i did not, did you?
and 500 billion cups are consumed every year, coffee is one of the world's most popular beverages no one reall gives a stiff about transparentcy.The average cup of coffee in Moscow is $11.19 ..Paris and $6.92.transparentcy rubbish one gives a toss ,i want taste ,aroma and chill-out.Gevalia blendcoffee coffee is the bollox.
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coffeeman
Member
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# Posted: 8 Sep 2008 15:15
In the UK, I pay £2.00 for my espresso. The coffee shop takes £1.90. The Coffee Roaster takes £0.08 the remaining £0.02 is shared between distributors, farmers, logistics, etc, etc. How much money, regardless of what coffee you buy goes to the farmer? Not much. So why don't you do what I do, I subscribe to a charity, then I can drink whatever coffee I like with a clear conscience. Say I drink a coffee 5 days a week on the way to work. Do you think that the farmer gets anywhere near £0.05 from me as a result, of course not. If you really care about the growers you'd be better off donating £5.00 a year to charity and drink what the hell you like! I like illy's philosophy and I love their coffee, so I drink it conscience free. Furthermore, if I set up a coffee shop I would use illy and when questioned on whether it was "fair trade" or not I'd ask the customer to put a small donation into the charity pot. Everyone's a winner, great coffee, clear conscience!
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Member
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